Before Human Existence

Hello everyone, my name is Julie McVay, and this is Unordinary Made Ordinary, where we talk about extraordinary experiences of everyday people. After today's interview, if you would like to continue the conversation of all things metaphysical, paranormal, and supernatural, feel free to join our private UMO group by clicking on the link in the video description.

Today, our guest is Christian Sundberg. Hello!

Christian: Thank you for having me.

Julie: Thank you! Oh, I'm so glad you're here. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. We have so much material to cover, so we're going to get right into it. If you wouldn't mind, Christian, can you just give us a little bit of background info on who you are?

Christian: Yeah, sure. The "who you are" question is funny because when we ask that question, we're really asking about the forms of your life, what history, what names, what activities can I relate to. Yes, but we are far more than that. But I'll share some of the earthly stuff very briefly. I'm just a regular guy. We're all just regular people having the experience. I worked for 20 years in the manufacturing industry, where I spent 16 years in a nuclear valve manufacturing company, 14 of those as a project manager. So, I'm kind of a normal working professional. That job ended last summer, and I took a new project manager position in January. I took six months off in between to publish a book. But yeah, it's super fun.

I'm a father of two beautiful children, a 13-year-old and a 10-year-old, and I'm a husband. I live the standard life for the most part in standard American life, except I am aware on a daily basis that we are not just this human story. So, I do not fully associate with simply the forms of the story, like the profession and the family role. I mean, I know that I am more, and we are more, and this is just something we're here to experience—a very rich, like a virtual reality or a deep play that we're experiencing right now. And so, I'm aware of that on a daily basis, I would say.

Julie: Yeah, cool. Okay, would you mind sharing a little bit about your childhood? I usually like to ask my guests if they grew up religious or spiritual, you know, spiritual practices in the home, that kind of thing.

Christian: Okay, so my childhood. When I was very young, I had pre-birth memory. I remembered existing before this human experience. That memory left me completely by the ages of maybe five or six. It returned at the age of 30 when I took up a long-term meditation practice. So, I'm tying that into childhood because that was something that I did remember at the time, but I wasn't aware of that for most of my adult life.

I was subsequently raised in a Lutheran household, but my parents were not super religious. It was just something that we did. But I did associate very deeply with that tradition for a while. I was actually an assistant minister in the church for 20 years and considered even going into seminary in my 20s. I always felt that it was difficult for me, however, to get behind a specific structure, and I understand much more why that is now because, after my awakening process at the age of 30, I really became much more fully aware of the limitlessness and the incredible boundless substance of our nature that transcends all of the form of the human experience. And so now, I do not need a form. I still do attend church with my family. We attend the Presbyterian church, and I speak routinely at a Unity church. But it's just a form that we utilize. I didn't understand that as I was growing up, but that's something that's plain to me now. So, that's just a very quick comment on the religious upbringing.

Julie: Aside from your pre-birth memories for the first few years of your childhood, did you experience any other kinds of unusual, out-of-the-ordinary, supernatural things—seeing spirits, premonitions, anything like that?

Christian: When I still had the pre-birth memory as a young child, I did have certain experiences that just seemed very normal to me, and I don't know how I would even pick through them to identify what was supernatural versus natural. It's all natural. But as I got older, there is one experience I had when I was 16 that I now understand was an out-of-body experience. It was so real and so lucid and so beautiful. That experience affected me for a long time, but I had no idea what it was. I didn't understand it as an out-of-body experience, but it was very eye-opening even though I didn't understand what I had experienced at the age of 16.

Julie: Would you mind just sharing a teeny bit about the OBE?

Christian: Okay, yeah. My body was asleep, and I was suddenly in an environment that looked like outside of my house. It was a beautiful summer sunset, and there was wind coming through the trees. It was so realistic and so colorful, and I was so lucid. I remember just walking around, touching things, appraising things. I remember picking up this little pebble off the ground and feeling it between my fingers and noticing how incredibly real it felt. In fact, I could almost discern detail that was even smaller than what I would normally be able to discern. It was so beautiful and so real, and I was just in awe, like, "What am I experiencing right now?" And I remember wanting to be across the street, and I was suddenly there on the other side of the street, which I now understand is quite normal to be able to move with intention in non-physical systems. That's very normal, but at the time, it was just a really beautiful and moving experience that I didn't have any context for.

Julie: Right, right. Oh, wow, that's amazing. So, you kind of go through life like every other person, and then around your 30s, you started meditating?

Christian: Yeah, so I've always been a spiritual seeker, and I was studying the material of the physicist and consciousness explorer Tom Campbell. The short version of the story is, well, I'll just say one little tidbit. There was one sentence Tom Campbell said in one of his videos that sent me down this entire path of awakening. The one sentence he said was, "What you believe will not get you anywhere particularly important." He meant the nature of the belief itself is not self-justifying. It stung my ego a little bit because, at the time, I believed that my religious belief did give me value. So, when I felt that sting, I was ready to brush it off, but I felt this tiny little nudge rise up within me, which I now understand the way this feels. There's a very particular feeling I understand it to be, probably a guide, but it doesn't need to be labeled. It was just, "Why did that sting?" And I'm like, "Yeah, why did that sting? If it stung, there's a reason."

So, I ended up buying his book and reading his thousand-page tome over a period of two years with a pen in hand. But what was more important is that as I read it, he encouraged meditation, and I took up a meditation practice. When I started meditating, at first, I just continued because it felt wonderful. It was relieving to not be lost in thinking all the time. But after a few months, I had my first non-physical experience, and it was very eye-opening. It was like, "Oh my gosh, there really is something greater going on." And as those experiences began to happen more frequently, I also began to have that pre-birth memory return to me. It was the most common thing in the world. It was like someone had blown leaves off of the ground, and there was the grass underneath. Wow, it was just like, "Oh, there's the grass. How did I miss that? How did I forget that was there?" Very normal.

But now that I've had that connection, I think about it every day. I am keenly aware of the veiling process that I experienced when I incarnated, and I feel the presence of the veil now. Metaphorically, I like to relate it to, I don't know, in the cop shows when they have a person sitting in the interrogation room, and there's like a piece of glass, and the cops can see in, but you can't see out. You know, it's kind of like that in consciousness and in the body of my awareness. I can feel it. I can't see out. I can't see past it. I am still veiled. You know, it's there, but I feel it. I know it's there, and I feel that distance, that vibrational distance. And there are moments when I feel aspects of who I really am at times, and it is beautiful and wonderful, and it's hard to not be aware of it. See, because the vibration on Earth is extremely dense, and it's a very low and limited vibration by comparison—very limiting, very defined, very dense. And so, as we get lost in that vibration, it's common to lose sight of the higher context from which we come and to lose sight of the deeper parts of ourselves. But it's wonderful to rediscover that and to feel that, but it is quite a vibrational distance. It's quite like straddling the Grand Canyon or something.

Julie: Why do you think you were specifically allowed to have some pre-birth memories?

Christian: Well, it's not that I'm special in any way. That's definitely not the case. And it's not like "allowed." Though, in my case, in my pre-birth experience, I did ask the guides to have some memory this time, a little tiny bit. I wanted to not forget everything, and they said that I could do that, but it would make this life more difficult because the contrast between there and here would be even greater. That's one of the functions of the veil—to prevent a very painful homesickness because the higher element of what we are is so high vibration and so free that being veiled is very helpful so that we can completely focus down into this role, this perspective. So, I remember asking that. I still forgot after the age of five or six, like I said.

But I don't think it's anything to do with me being special or something. It's just that as we let go of fully our associations with the story of human life and as we fully feel everything that we experience and do not reject and do not block off, those larger parts of ourselves tend to rise up all on their own. You know, we all have a much deeper portion of the self that we typically don't have sight of, but we are absolutely still that. So, it is possible for anyone to be in touch with that at one point or another because it's what we really are, even though the veiling is very effective here. I'm not saying that. I mean, this is an extremely effective simulation going on on Earth, and I know how this sounds. You know, I know how crazy this sounds, but it is like an extremely effective simulation that we are not bound into. It feels like we're bound, but we're not actually bound. It's a deeply convincing vibrational place and set of perspectives, set of perceptions and thoughts that we tend to lose ourselves within.

Julie: Before I ask you some questions that I have on my mind, do you want to share a little bit about what you started remembering exactly?

Christian: Yeah, sure. Well, I'll just share some. I've shared it a number of times. I don't want to take too much time, but I'll just say that I remember, oh boy, okay, so this is very hard to put into language. I just have to disclaim this because there is no language to describe our higher nature or the higher realms from which we come because our language is based on our local world. You know, our language is basically forms and symbols and assumptions of Earth. There are certain assumptions on Earth that we hold to be absolutely true that aren't, like, for instance, linear time and discrete location. Those are two big ones.

We just assume all of reality exists in a way where we are separate from reality and we're in a discrete place, and everything else is too. That's not true. That's a non-native experience that we agree to have for a while. So, I say that before I say anything because language is so limited that as soon as we open our mouths and start putting our limited, crude symbols on it, it just ruins, to a large part, what really is going on. It's part of our limiting experience that we wanted to have rather than just have telepathy and send you my thoughts and images. Yeah, no, telepathy is the normal state of communication. We don't have that here typically because this place is a deep experience of separation.

That's one of the elements of Earth—the separateness that we experience. And so, being able to experience being separate means we feel like our thoughts are our own. Nobody else can see them or hear them. You're out there; I'm over here, and I have to throw words at you, and you have to throw words back. But the thing is, that's not really there. There's no such thing as separateness or privacy, for that matter. It's all seen; it's all known.

Anyway, so that is something we experience here, and that's particular and peculiar to Earth. Speaking is very frustrating. I commonly express my frustration with words to my wife, just constantly saying, "Why do we have to use life?"

Okay, so all that being said, I remember a long time ago, before I had ever been physical, coming across a being who had been physical and feeling in the substance of this being's nature this incredible power and joy and freedom. And I asked him—this is telepathic, not words—but I asked him, "My goodness, do you feel as full of joy and power and freedom as I feel that you were experiencing?" And he shared with me, yes, I could feel in him what he experienced.

And I said, "My goodness, how did you do that? How did you become this? How did you come to know this depth of joy and expansiveness?" And one of the things he shared with me was that he had lived physical lives, and there was one in particular in which he had been dealing with a very painful chronic condition of some kind. And the way that he met that pain, the way that he met that limitation, allowed this incredible refinement and expansion of who he was. And I asked him, "My goodness, were you healed?" You know, because I could feel how deeply he had been damaged in this life, and he shared, yes. And I felt the depth of the healing, and I said, "I want to do that. I'm going to do that." Like, I was so inspired, and he kind of not brushed me off but kind of said like, "Yeah, that's what they all say. You don't know how hard this is, and you just don't know."

Julie: Were you saying you wanted to have a human physical life or you wanted to suffer?

Christian: I wanted to have a physical life and participate in that type of expansion. It wasn't about wanting to suffer. It was about wanting to engage that type of limitation to grow and expand. Okay, also because the joy and the love and the power and the freedom that is knowable and expressible and actualizable grew so much in this being, and I wanted to know that and experience that and be that. It was about being more, you could say. Maybe that's not the right way to put it because our true nature—maybe I don't like those words—but something like that. It's about participating in expansion.

So, he told me, "Go talk to your guides," and I did. I don't have right after that, but I know I lived many times, and I went back and found this being later, and I shared with him, "See, I'm doing this. I'm on the path," and he was encouraging.

So, the majority of my pre-birth memories of enough time, somewhat immediately preceding this lifetime, I had taken a long break after a previous life, and this guide kept coming to me and asking, "Are you ready to go back yet? Are you ready to go back yet?" And I put him off time and again for a while, and eventually, I said, "Okay, I'm ready." And then I reviewed with this guide what I can only describe as my state—like who I was, who I had been, what I had known, what I had done.

And it was very obvious the thing that I needed to—I don't like the words "work on"—the thing it was like, the state of being that had bested me, that it would be best for me to integrate a certain very low vibration, a certain fear that had overcome me that I wanted to integrate. And it was so profoundly low vibration, and I asked him, "Has it ever been done in all of creation? Like, has any other being ever integrated something this low?" And he shared, "Yes, and you have all of time available to you to do so. There's no hurry." And I just knew in that state, if it can be done, I will do it.

So, he brought me—they brought me; there's multiple guides—brought me a life that was very perfect for this intention, very high match. Okay, and this wasn't this life, though. It was immediately preceding life. All right, and I reviewed that life in great detail, and I accepted the life. And then I remember accepting the veil. Okay, the veil is just a word. It means the limitations in consciousness space that go along with having the physical experience.

And the way I can best describe this because this is what's like so close in the forefront of my mind now—it's like having, okay, imagine being so expanded and connected to everything and having all knowledge and all-knowing and all freedom and power at your disposal in the body of your awareness, and then having that plummet down in vibration and having all your knowing be cut off. It's like, so I like to describe it like an amplifier that produces a pitch, and then you turn down the dial, and then when you get to the bottom, you turn it down some more, and then more and then more and more, and then you keep turning down more and then turn it down some more. That was what it was like plummeting all the way down into this physical place, and it was like arriving to like the vacuum of space—just a metaphor—like a place with no heat and no substance and yet extremely dense and cramped and limiting.

And so, when I arrived, I immediately said, "I am not doing this. This is—" I had fear rise up, and I was so overcome by this fear, and I said, "There's no way I am living a whole lifetime in this state." I felt like I had lost all that I was. So, I fought back. I summoned my might, my strength, and I fought my way back out past the veil, and I had a life review because I became aware that I had killed the fetus that was to be my body.

I was in the womb, but I had ended that life, and I became aware of how I had affected the mother and not only the poor mother but hundreds of other people who were affected by the mother because I had heaped grief upon her by my own fear. And so, I couldn't believe that I had done that. You know, like I had these big intentions, this positive plan, this intention to help and to expand and to participate in a constructive way, and then this is what I had done because of my fear. And I said, "I really got to do something about this fear. I really have a lot of fear."

Okay, so for the sake of time, I'll just kind of jump a bit. So, I still wanted to do this, so they brought me this life, and this life was not as good of a match as the previous one, but it was pretty good. Okay, I'm just making up numbers here, but if the first one was like 99, this one was like 87 or something. I don't know; it's not really numbers. I'm just making up numbers to communicate the point, but it was pretty good. It was good enough.

And I remember reviewing this life in incredible detail, reviewing all at once millions and millions of possibilities in this huge, like I described, like a flow chart, like a tree that you laid on its side. Let's start at the trunk and move out to the branches, like a flow chart of all these possibilities of what could or was likely or less likely to happen in the life and what it would be like to experience being me in these branches. And I made certain requests. I asked for certain traits and qualities, and I knew that this life would give me the opportunity to re-engage a very low vibration fear and that I would likely be traumatized in my 20s and crushed by a traumatic experience, and that did happen.

Okay, yeah, so I accepted the life, and once again, I remember the veil coming over me and then plummeting down, down, down, down, and eventually arriving at this place where this time I just tried not to fight it because I just didn't want to reject it again. So, I held on and held on and held on, and I just focused on not pushing back, not fighting, and eventually, I sent one message, one ping back to the technician beings that had helped me accept the veil, "Did it take?" And they sent one ping back, "Yes." So, I knew I had made it. I felt really accomplished that I had even made it to the physical. It was like such a big accomplishment even making it.

So, I was there for a while, and then after a while, I'm like, "You know what? I am not doing this. This is so dark. This is so low vibration. I am not myself." And so, once again, I began to summon my might and my strength to fight my way out again, and when I did that, this most holy moment of my entire life happened where the great spirit of God came to me and expanded me back out, and I felt the whole universe within me, and I felt our sun churning with bliss in me, and I felt just endless love and bliss, and the spirit said to me, "This is still what you are.

You can never not be this." So, I relaxed at last, like, "Oh, that's still what I am. That's wonderful because I knew that I didn't have to fight because I wasn't losing who I was. Right, I was still that." So, I let go, and I was in the womb for a while, and the next memory I have is of being born. I remember the shock of being born and the sensory experience but no intellectual understanding at all, just being super curious and looking up at the beings who were taking care of me, the nurses and whoever else, and just being like, "Wow, who are these beings? What is this experience?" And yeah, so that's a short version of the story.

I know people find that very interesting and fascinating, you know, the ego-like stories. I don't think it's that important actually. You know, I share it because I think it can be helpful. I think it's far more important to focus on who we really are because that—what I experienced in the womb—is what we all really are.

Julie: Can I ask you a question going back a little bit to the first one that you rejected right before this life? Do you have any ideas of why they didn't give you that same feeling to keep you going?

Christian: I don't know. No idea. I have no idea.

Julie: Do you think if they hadn't done that, you would have maybe pushed yourself out, and the fetus would have been in this life?

Christian: Yeah, this one. Yeah, if they had not done it, I suspect so, but I don't know because from that level, the understanding is profoundly different, and there's a breadth of seeing and that breadth of understanding that I can't possibly surmise what would have happened or what wouldn't have happened.

Julie: The fear that you felt when you were in the womb—what was that from?

Christian: Oh, well, it was from being limited and being constrained and having all of who I am be cut off. I felt like I lost all that I am. I felt like all of the—you could say all the treasures of my soul were gone.

Julie: Do you think we, maybe all of us, then go through something like that when we go into the womb?

Christian: Yes, I mean, I can only speak from my own experience, but it seems very likely to me that we all experience something extremely similar. We choose to forget all of the rest of what we really are. It's like partitioning a portion of the self, you could say, down into the human character, and the human character is like a blank slate. It's not that it doesn't have access to everything, but it's still the same you. That's the key; that's really important. It's still the same being.

Like, okay, so I once had an experience after meditation where I thought I was done meditating, and I sat down in my chair a few minutes later, and all of a sudden, I experienced all these orbs. I saw all these orbs, and I knew that every one of them was a life that I lived, and I was those people. It wasn't like I thought, "Well, if reincarnation is real, then maybe those are other people, and I'm them." No, no, no, this was like the me that feels like me to me like right now did other things, was other people. It wasn't like other people; it was like I have been a woman. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I have been a woman who gave birth, for instance, and that's the same me, even though right now that me, the feeling of me, is associated to some extent with the name Christian and with the story of Christian. I know that that's not all of what I am.

So, I'm saying that in a context because, yes, in order to have the fresh start and the new experience of this human experience, we become veiled to the rest of what we are so that we can totally focus here and develop a new personality, you know, free from the history of previous experiences, like being influenced.

Julie: These orbs, these other lives—are they linear, or were they going on all at the same time? I don't know if you can answer that.

Christian: Yeah, no, well, this might sound like a cheat, but I felt like it was both. I think it's all at once, but there's also sequence. So, I don't know how to describe that. Yeah, like my pre-birth memory also feels like all these events that I just described taking place all at once and right now, not in the past, but in the past too. They also feel like they're 10,000 years old. So, but there is sequence; there's like spirit sequence, but it's also all in the one now. So, I don't know how to describe that. That's a tough one.

Julie: And where all of these orbs—human lives on this planet Earth, or all over the place?

Christian: I only know specifically for three of them. I know I lived at least one as a human woman, and I know I lived at least one life as a not as a human but in some kind of civilization that was very advanced—okay, physical—some physical life. I don't know anything about it except for very limited imagery, and I know I lived one life as a non-human creature on Earth.

Julie: That sounds true. Yeah, I know that sounds super strange.

Christian: I remember being a bird. I know this sounds super crazy.

Julie: Oh, a bird? Oh, okay, a migrating bird. Gotcha.

Christian: Okay, I know that sounds super woo-woo.

Julie: No, that doesn't get it to me, probably not my listeners.

So, I'm curious if you know, and it's okay if you don't know the answer, just say you know, I don't know. I appreciate your honesty, but yeah, these other lives—do they also get the veil of forgetfulness, you know, on these other planets, for example, if you lived a life as an ET or a bird?

Christian: That's a really good question. So, I can only share what I know. So, I know that in order to be physical, there is some level of veiling, but the level of veiling is unique per body and per collective consciousness that one is a part of. So, there is some veiling. I don't know the difference. I can't possibly speak to the difference in veiling, but I know that, like, being human, for instance, is a very highly sought, high-opportunity context that is very limiting.

And like, when you come into this context, you're becoming part of the collective consciousness of the human species—all the thought objects of humanity and all the history, right? And there's a lot of low-vibration stuff in there, yes. And so, the veiling has to be to a certain extreme way.

I suspect—I don't know for certainty—but I suspect that for any other civilizations that might be out there that are higher vibration, I suspect the veiling is less, but I don't know that. I do know there are other universes that we could possibly engage, and that our physical universe is an extremely low vibration. When I say low vibration, I just mean extreme limitation, not negative. It's not actually a negative context of high limitation that we apply the meaning to. That's really important, but it is highly limiting. It's a very constraining experience, very highly constraining state of being to be physical in our universe.

Julie: Do you know if, because you got to remember some of your memories, some of your pre-birth memories, and you said that's a sort of a constraint or you said something about contrast—that's what you said—so it makes this life more difficult the more memories we have because of that homesickness? Now, I know plenty of people who have a homesickness, and they have no pre-birth memories, no memories of past lives, but they just have this deep yearning, like, "I don't really belong here, and I really want to go home. I don't know where that is." We so many of us feel like that for a good reason.

Christian: We feel that homesickness because this is an alien state. I mean, I'm not saying it's like getting in an astronaut suit and going into outer space. You can clunk around, but you're just that; you're not really your full self. You're clunking around in space. It's kind of like that. It's like the body is like a spacesuit. You could think of it like a way to engage a physical environment.

So, regarding whether or not, I just know that I knew that having some memory would create a very painful homesickness because the yearning to be there would be overwhelming. It could be prohibitive. Like, you wouldn't be able to get up and go to work in the morning.

Julie: Yeah, yep. You know, I wonder if it would decrease the population in a self-initiated way if everybody had all of their memories. I don't know, just the thought of past life memories or who we are in between lives. I don't know, but it seems that on some of these other realities—physical, non-physical—we do have more information.

Christian: Well, I will say that as we gain awareness, if we really are love—our true nature—so, I wouldn't necessarily say that that conclusion is likely because, okay, we know that there's value in this. This life is incredibly valuable and precious and not to be taken lightly, not to be thrown away. And when there's fear, fear is an opportunity, not something to be escaped actually. It is a sign of yet unevolvingness. It's just fear is a sign that there's some experience that we have yet to integrate or some perception that we have yet to integrate.

So, when there's so, I'm saying that because usually when someone wants to bring the experience to an end, there's a profound fear that's taken hold. I am not making light of that at all because I have come to face fear, and I've had a heck of a lot of fear in my experience. I had PTSD for a number of years in my 20s, and I've since integrated it very deeply, this fear. Okay, so I don't say it lightly, but I'm just saying that fear is a sign that there's some part of our experience we've rejected and not fully integrated yet. And ego, by the way, is a sign of fear. Ego arises out of fear.

So, where we are egoic and where we seek to justify the self at the expense of others, there's some lesson, there's some fear down there that the ego is trying to speak away, talk away, "Oh no, you have power because look, you can hurt this person next year, or you have value because you belong to this group, or you have value because you have money in your bank account or you're attractive or whatever." That's just the simple ego game that we play to try to get back that power or that worthiness that seems to have been lost in coming here but was never truly lost.

Julie: How many lives do you think we need to experience to, like, with the one guide that you kind of looked up to, I guess, so to speak, "Oh, I want it, I want that"? Is there a number of lives that we have to check off, or is it difficult?

Christian: Okay, so first of all, I say that we have choice. There's always choice. It's not "need to"; it's a bit like saying, "How many classes do you want to go to in college?" or "How many runs do you want to go on in order to get your body stronger?" You know, it's a little bit like that. I mean, it's a rough, very crude metaphor, so I'm just saying that we have the choice. The choice is ours.

So, but then how many? So, I mean, we won't do it forever. You don't go to school forever. You know, you don't go running all the time. Again, these are crude metaphors. I'm just saying we choose to come, and there is some limitation, but how many? I don't know. I'm not going to take a guess, but I will say that the way that we choose to meet this moment, this experience, is so profoundly powerful. I strongly feel that if someone fully utilizes this life, it is very likely worth many other experiences where someone is resisting and not integrating and not growing. I think we can accomplish an awful lot in one experience if we're willing to face our fears and grow in love, if we're really willing to own our own crap.

You know, this is not about, "Oh, I just need to learn some new idea, and then I pass." No, this is not about that. It's about who you are. It's about how you meet reality, and where you don't have joy right now, there is some opportunity for growth, even if your limitations are extreme. So, those extreme limitations just mean extreme opportunity. So, I'm saying that in the context of your question because we have a profound opportunity in our lives as physical beings to integrate experience and to grow towards love. That's what this is all about. This is all about love. It's all about growing towards love and expanding as creative, loving beings.

Julie: I'm gonna throw out a difficult question. I think it's a difficult question. If we're already love on the other side—that's where we've come from—why would we need to come here to learn it more? So, does that make sense?

Christian: Yeah, of course. Okay, so the substance of what we are is love. So, we could say consciousness itself is made of love, and it has no need. It has no requirement put upon it. It is what it is. It is what exists. Yeah, yep. Okay, so then, if there is to be expansion, if there is to be any growth, any growth of love and joy, then there is to be a process of evolution and expansion. That means—I'm trying to be careful because the language is really tricky—but it means that we can use contrast. We can use situations of limitation and context that are well-defined for the purposes of expanding that which really is. So, we're using a non-sense. We're using a non-real thing, and I say non-real like our experience here is real, right? But the objects aren't really real. The bodies aren't really real. Yeah, the thoughts aren't really even real. They're all forms, right, that we are using, and we're seeing how consciousness uses them.

Okay, so but then when we drop the forms and we're free, what we still are remains. We always were consciousness. We were then; we will be after, but now, through form, through the tool of form, through the tool of creation and contrast, we have learned how to do something differently. And what is that something? Use our intent. So, intent is the primary action. Consciousness, you can say, is the fundamental substance of what is, and intent is its fundamental action. And so, if you can engage form in a way that is more in alignment with the truth of our being, which is love and freedom and joy, even when the limitations are great, then that substance expands out to that.

I'm sorry, we're getting excited. So, if you take, okay, so I'll use a metaphor here. So, if the sun is source, and we're a piece of it, and we go out—get around the microphone stand—if we go out this far, yeah, or maybe this far, or maybe even all the way out here, really far away, and then we integrate this experience, yes, yes, and there is this expansion of being all the way out to here, and that expansion is not just an expansion of self; it is an expansion of all that is.

Julie: Well, what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that source is evolving through our experiences, through every—

Christian: Yeah, the problem with duality and dualistic language that we're really relying on is if we say yes, that means that the no is not true, and they're both. But yes, it sounds like a paradox. Some of these paradoxes sound like paradoxes only because we believe duality is fundamentally real, and it's not. Yeah, so it's only from within the framework of duality that these things look like paradoxes, but yes, there is a constant evolution that is transpiring. All that is is ever, ever, ever becoming more. And what is—I think that's actually Tom Campbell's theory as well.

Julie: Yes, yeah, he speaks about, yeah, his acronym is AUM—Absolute Unbound and Manifold—that's what he calls the source.

Christian: Oh, and he calls that, uh, seer. I think the AUO is the some other acronym for the unexpanded source versus expanded source. He gets kind of technical about it, which is fine. Yeah, physicist. I mean, again, we're in duality, so we like to think, "What's the beginning? What's the end? What's the product? What's the goal?" We know, of course, that's right, and we know finish.

Where's the goal? Absolutely. Yeah, the thing is love and joy and creativity are the goal because that's what we—I like that—we choose because we're curious beings. We're curious, powerful, free beings. We're so free that we can choose to have an experience of incredible limitation where we even experience being not free. How crazy is that? That's crazy. That's what we're doing. Like, "What was I thinking? What was my higher self thinking?" It's like climbing Mount Everest. Not everybody climbs Mount Everest, but some people want to do that. Well, we are those who are doing that.

Julie: Yes, yes, we're climbing the Mount Everest of diving so deep into the experience of separation that we have forgotten we are unconditionally loved.

Christian: Wow, and mastering that perspective allows us to forever know—and when I say know, I mean understand personally and feel—what unconditional love really is, really means, in a way that beings who have never experienced that contrast don't know. Like I said, contrast is a creative tool. It's being used in a way that adds. It's an additive use, not just a limiting use.

Julie: So, I don't want to push this point too much because I want to move on to something else, but someone might say, "Some might find the Earth has gotten a little out of hand. Humanity has gotten a little too extreme with some of the, shall I say, unconscionable cruelty and violence. And aren't there other physical realities that you can have an extreme contrast and these limitations without all of this other stuff that's gone so extreme?"

Christian: Yeah, that's a hard question. No, it's gonna—that's good. So, okay, now, first of all, there, even a small act of inflicting pain on another is an intention rooted in fear. Even a small one of those is unacceptable in the context of total unconditional love and freedom and joy. And when I say unacceptable, I don't mean—okay, I want to be careful about that. I'm just saying that I don't want to draw a huge distinction and say, "Oh, the Earth is so bad, so if we just had it one-tenth as bad, that would be okay." You know, maybe four-tenths is bad is okay, maybe seven-tenths is bad, but eight-tenths, that's not okay. You know, there's—we love duality, so we love drawing spectrums and saying somewhere it's not acceptable. Well, guess what? None of it is acceptable. It's what you're saying ultimately.

Well, okay, but if it was totally unacceptable, it wouldn't be existing. Like, we wouldn't be here. There's a deeper process going on. Okay, so the reason I'm highlighting that distinction is because this is actually a neutral context. We apply the meaning to it, and this is just what we have done with this context. We who have a lot of fear—it's like several billion kindergarteners being handed scissors and being left alone, and then this is what happens. And in this case, this classroom is extremely limiting because they don't remember they're connected. They all have fear. Look at what happens. This is what we're doing. This is what's happening. So, I'm not making light of the extremity of the suffering. I am not making light of it. I'm just saying this is the natural result when you give free will beings who have yet to make love-based choices and they make fear-based choices in this context free reign.

And this is who we are. Like, the world is who we are. The world is what we are, and we love to blame the world, and we love to blame even spirit. "How can this be?" Yeah, we stab each other, and then we say, "How can this be?" Well, we hurt others because we're hurt, and we're hurt because they're hurt, and on and on in this chain down our species. But now, we are seeking to step past that, to grow, and actually integrate these fears and actually expand. That's what the awakening is. It's a shift in consciousness and higher vibration where we are seeking to actually engage these limitations in a new way and to overcome these great difficulties that have been so deeply rooted in our history.

Now, are there other realities that are less limiting? Yes, yeah, there are. Are there mountains shorter than Mount Everest? Yeah.

Julie: I've heard that Earth is one of the most—this is what I've heard—one of the most difficult realities to incarnate into. That was my understanding at the time.

Christian: Oh, okay. Was that—this is, I mean, I'm not—I can only share what I remember. I'm not saying I have all the answers. I'm just saying that I remember knowing, "Oh, like this whole universe is like taking it to like the most, the new most extreme level." Like, there have been universes before this universe, and they in-breathe and out-breathe, and each time, they're, "Oh, you can take it to a newer level." Okay, like leveling up in a game. Yes, it is like leveling up in a game, and right now, we're on a high difficulty level, and in this one, we're running around feeling separate as heck, feeling a lot of fear, and then we're like, "Wow, why are we all hurting each other so much?" Well, it's because of our own fear.

So, fear is the only—there's only really two problems: fear and ignorance. Those are the only real two problems. Limitation is not actually the problem. Limitation is just an opportunity. Yeah, that makes sense. Limitation is just an opportunity to experience and work through fear primarily. I say ignorance secondarily because right now, our world just tends to not be aware of the larger context very much. I mean, it's growing, but we don't have a super positive trajectory. I guess I should say positive, or we're awakening.

So, eventually, it would appear that when spirits choose to incarnate, maybe this won't be the hardest one anymore to incarnate onto. Maybe there'll be some other universe that's more difficult. I don't know. I think that's very likely, but I don't know. I just mean, if there's been universes before, which I remember, so that implies that may occur again. Yeah, but the thing is, whenever we talk about this, the human tends to think, "Oh my God, there's so much suffering. I don't like this. This sounds like bad news. I don't want more of this." Yeah, yeah.

Well, let me just say that it's important to recognize though that the suffering—our own suffering is, in many cases, not always, but in many cases, because of our own fear and our own yet unevolvingness. And so, when we feel that way in response to the world, it's a sign that we have an opportunity to grow because the very ascended beings, the masters, they can live even here with great joy and peace, and they can help many, many other people, even if they can't help every single other person in a physical sense, right? They live lives that are full, and they meet this present moment without all those burdens and stresses, and they help many, many people. And by the way, not just physically.

When we meet our own fear, we are helping the entire collective because we're a part of one like pond, and when you change your light, all that you're giving permission to everybody else in consciousness space that's connected. We're all connected. So, even if you don't physically go out and do something, if you meet your own fear on your own, if you make the loving choice—and love has so many things that it means: the compassion, the kind choice—if you decide to be brave enough to challenge your beliefs where necessary, if you take ownership for the way that you're treating your dog, whatever—you are a part of the solution. You are part of this solution of the whole thing. And now, I don't want to even say just part of the solution; that is the movement and the healing of the world.

But instead, we tend to get so lost in hopelessness and in the scope. The whole play around us is just a play. It's not even fundamentally real, but we feel so overpowered by it. The spiritual message is one of empowerment. It's one of knowing that you are absolutely powerful and free, and no matter how limited and extreme this may get, you have the power to heal and to meet your fear and to help the world and to find joy in this moment. Joy is our birthright. It's who we are. This is not just a world of cruelty and suffering.

Julie: Well, I cannot believe we are getting really to our time here, our time limit, and I don't want to run out of time before you have a chance to share about your book and maybe if you're working on any projects and how listeners can connect with you. I'm going to put all these links up in the video description.

Christian: Okay, yeah, thanks. So, my website is awalkinthephysical.com. The book is called A Walk in the Physical as well, and it is available for free on my website at the third link down on the book page. It's not about money. Anyone can access the book. I spent about six years writing the book. I felt intuitively guided through this process, and it is a reality model that helps to encourage the individual to sense and find who they really are and to hopefully meet reality in a way that is closer to the freedom and love of who we really are. So, it's meant to be a helpful tool.

You can also reach me by email. Sometimes I get a lot of emails, and so I really apologize if I can't respond to everybody, but it's awalkinthephysical@gmail.com, and I'll try to respond as best as I can. I have a lot of one-on-one requests. I'm happy to do them, but I'm a bit behind, but I'm happy to meet with anybody who would like as long as I can find the time to do so. I don't charge anything. It's just to help.

Julie: Lovely, thank you. And there's a bunch of talks on—one last thing—I've shared many in many other videos, so if this is helpful, there's a talks page on my website with all sorts of talks I've shared, and so that's available also for anyone who's interested.

Christian: Wow, cool.

Julie: And what I like to do, Christian, before I sign off, is leave my guest with the last words. So, anything that you feel like, "Oh, I really wanted to cover this," or words of encouragement, anything on your heart?

Christian: Yeah, so whoever you are listening today, I know this sounds super strange: you are not human. And what I mean is, you are the you that feels like you to you—that true you that is joyful and free. That's who you really are, and you don't have to take the human play so seriously. All the labels of the story—it's just a story. You get to decide what the labels are. You get to decide how to relate to your story or what story to make. You are free to do that. So, please be encouraged as you walk, as you go through life, to know that it's okay if you have fear.

You can meet fear, and you can actually heal it. And this whole thing is just a huge, fun experiment, and there is no death at the end of it. Like, we're so afraid of avoiding this death thing. You don't die. You're not going to die. Whoever you are listening today, you're not going to die. You're going to be you, and in fact, more you when all the constraints of the human limitations are just let go and released. You know, you're not going to die. Your consciousness seamlessly continues. So, please be reminded of that so that you know, as we remember that, I feel like we can meet life with just that bit more, and that bit more is a lot—that bit more of happiness and freedom. And you have the freedom to make those choices and to use your story or make your story however you like.

Julie: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's awesome. And thanks, Christian, for hanging out and spending time. I know you're a busy guy, so I appreciate it.

Christian: No problem. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Julie: Absolutely. And thank you to everyone watching. This has been Julie McVay with Unordinary Made Ordinary, and I hope you will join us next time for another fascinating interview. And if you did enjoy this, please give it a thumbs up, and if you like this type of content on the channel, please subscribe and hit the bell icon so you are alerted to future videos. And I hope you're all having a wonderful day or evening, wherever you are on the planet or off the planet, and we will see you all next time. Bye!